Still A Phelps Fan <33 (l0lalovesy0u) wrote in celebrityhorse,
Still A Phelps Fan <33

What is your opinion on this? Personally, I hate the idea. Arabs simply do not have the power that is behind a sporthorse. Perhaps the idea of a "bulkier" monster arabs that has proven himself as a jumper or the like to add a little refinement and good looks to warmbloods, but not these delicate suckers. Even the idea of arab crosses [as in 1/4 arab or less] is a much better idea to me. Introducting straight arab blood to a warmblood breeding pool will only weaken the future generations until the arab is bred so far out that the horses remain with just a little bit of the refinement and elegance of a arab. The AWS is a work in progress, I rather like the idea of making a warmblood without the big boxy head but I am a little annoyed with Rhineland-Pfazl Saar for approving this stallion. What's your opinion?

This stallion, Legion VF, is approved for breeding by both the American Warmblood Society and Rhineland-Pfalz Saar.

The owners say nothing about him proving himself as a sporthorse. But if I do remember correctly AWS will only approve horses who have proven themselves in dressage, combined driving, eventing or show jumping.
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angered european hannoverian and holsteiner owner here.

most the horses that the AWS approves are just jokes to the name "warmblood". call it something else, but the grade horses i've seen are not, nor will never be warmbloods. say it together now, "grades". if you combine an arab with an european warmblood, you have an arab and an european warmblood cross. A + B does not make A or B, it makes C.
A+A=A, B+B=B, anything else, is a grade, a mutt, a mix, a cross. the AWS is trying to do the whole "grrreat melting pot" of america thing to the warmblood name. it just never will be a warmblood in the sense that the name means.

maybe i'm just a backwards old purist, but i believe this isn't a step forward.
i owned an american warmblood colt. i adore him.

1/4 DWB, 2/4 TB, 1/4 AQHA.

He doesn't have the big boxy ugly warmblood head and he is honestly going to be a very nice sporthorse because, his mom was a sporty lanky appendix, not a fat ass grade one. I think it's hard to not focus on RIGHT NOW and think of the grand scheme of AWS. AWS is probably going to churn out some piss poor horses in the next few years. But I think eventually they will have some nice bloodlines to work with [probably at least 10 generations after they close the stud/brood books]. But it's hard to say if they ever WiLL close them. If Legion VF was your sporthorse greatgreatgreat grandsire, you might have a very nice sporthorse with just a HiNT on the elegance from Legion, because, no denying, he is very elegant looking. But most of the horses inbetween Legion and his greatgreatgreatgreatgrandkids isn't going to be up to par in my books.
theres no denying that he has elegance. in that very araby flowy oohs-and-ahhs fairytale horse sort of way haha. thats just not something i feel the warmblood sector needs. what i was mostly refering is the use of the word warmblood. a warmblood is a breed of horse in itself refined over the years in (the leaders) germany, denmark, holland, sweden, and russia.
i'm sure you have a very fine horse, but it's a grade horse in my mind. in a way, i feel "american warmblood" owners should be proud of their horses without trying to make them sound like something they aren't. a half thoroughbred and quarter horse with a dash of danish in there isn't going to be the same as a full danish warmblood. no matter how you twist and turn it.
maybe it just is the same as how americans call themselves "15% this" and "25% that" when they aren't really either, they're americans and they need to stop pretending to be something they aren't.

i'm sure i sound a total bitch right now heh, i'm sorry to come off like this. i believe a lot of it stems from coming from the extravagant warmblood breeding barns in denmark where i was born, and then coming to america to these backyard places where they mix a paint horse with a clydesdale and say it's the same as a wesfalien or zweibrücker. in a way, it really is insulting to the centuries of work it took to produce these amazing animals. its if you likened a small child's finger painting to van gogh. to call a crude grade horse a warmblood is flippantly disregarding the implications and history that goes along with the name "a warmblood horse".
they just arent a refined warmblood breed.

you are looking at it from the prospective of

europe has developed the breed already.

america is just in the beginning of developing their warmblood breed. that's why i don't generally call Amos an "american warmblood" I say he is a Dutch Warmblood cross [his sire is a register dutch warmblood] who is registered with the AWS.

i wouldnt say it's insulting because no one is breeding their paint to the warmblood and saying "wow, look it's a holsteiner". it's a whole new thing in the beginning stages. it literally is a warmblood so it's quite fair to call it a warmblood. An Anglo-Arab is still hot-blooded and ShirexClydesdale is still cold-blooded even though they are "mutts".

i do see were you a coming from. i'm sure you see it the same why i see people breeding "labradoodleoodlesofnoodlesshcnoodles" and passing them off as "real breeds" because they is some stupid ass registry out there willing to register mutts. people think they are getting something special when they are really just getting a mixed breed dog. but this is exactly why i got amos because, since he isn't 100% pure elite awesome perfect holsteiner approved colt he didn't cost me an arm and a leg. The horse world however, is very different, horses are not alays purchased for their parents and conformation [in some disciplines], they are purchased for their peformance. have you seen the showjumpers out there that look like veloca raptors but still win EVERYTHiNG? amos has the cute QH head, the quite QH personality, hopefully the speed of a TB and the performance of a WB and i think this is ultimately the goal of the AWS. to produce a BETTER sporthorse. they do base their approval and registry on performance in dressage, eventing, showjumping or combined driving. but that is just like america, always needing to be better. the AWS will take years and years and years to get to the point that they want to be at right now. it's a frustrating wait.
America is simply in the beginning stages of taking their american breeds, and cross breeding them to get the ultimate jumping machine.

.. or at least that's what the AWB association claims.

do european warmbloods carry the "X" factor (enlarged hearts)? (sorry, OT, but i'm JW)
Arabians + Warmbloods = Bad idea, IMO. If you start breeding to Arabians, then you start adopting their lame-ness problems, along with their temperments. Sporthorse's temperments are very willing to please, and very non-aggressive for the most part (from what i've seen + heard) but Arabians would kick you to death if that's what it took for them to get out of work. As wonderful as refining the look of the WB goes, i really don't think the AWB needs refining, they just should stop accepting any horse that has an ounce of imported warmblood in them into the registries .. to me, a QH / TB / imported warmblood is NOT in fact a warmblood, but rather a Cross breed.

I think the term Warmblood is over used, too and if i had spent the money to import a sporthorse from Europe and someone told me oh yes well my AWB is just as good as the horse you imported i would be quite pissed, and ready to rip their head off. Maybe this is the ASB person in me?

Arabians were not meant to Jump, i know that there are ones out there that do, but they were bred and created for their beauty, and their natrual talent with their legs, not to push off of the ground with their hind muscles & legs and get up over something. Their haunches aren't as strong as a Sporthorse's and never will be, i think that this is something that Sporthorse owners should think about before crossing into Arabian bloodlines.

The Arabians already have a problem with other blood into their registries, there are few straight arabians as it is now, especially since the bottom dropped out of the industry, i certainly see why the owners of Arabian Stallions want to add arabian blood into sporthorse's (simply a greed thing, their studfees = expensive as hell) but, not why Sporthorse people would want to breed to arabians.

But, my main point is - Arabians are powerful creatures in a different way Sporthorses are powerful. Arabians get their power from their front ends, and Sporthorses their backends. Why would you want to breed the two together? A cross breed can't jump as high as a purebreed anyway - and i realise there is more to eventing than just jumping, but still.
I don't think that Arabians should be crossed with them either. Arabians should be pure, IMO. As for Arabians kicking you to death to get out of work? Are you serious? Have you ever even ridden an Arabian, let alone handled one? I don't think so. Arabians are very powerful horses, they choose who they work for. And I like that about them. It's better than some push button that will do whatever you want. I like a little challenge, but once you overcome it, there's nothing that can stop you. Their lameness is only because people have bred the true Arabian right out of them. They're known for never being lame, but they don't have the natural blood anymore. However, they aren't just nice to look at. I own and handle many, and sorry if I kinda went off on that but it just pisses me off when people assume things about them being "hot headed" or whatever you may think. Especially thinking they'll hurt someone to get out of work. That's just, I don't know.

However, I don't know much about Sport horses, and I shouldn't have a lot of room to talk I suppose. I wasn't trying to be rude, I guess it's just one of those days. Legion VF is a nice stud, and I think that if they're trying to improve abilities, why not?
I actually have been around arabians a lot. I ride American Saddlebreds, but my boyfriend's parents own a big Arabian breeding facility where they own several retired studs, along with one straight egyptian one that is on private stud. I've mainly been around colts of theirs, and they would all love to intimidate people just because that's the way that they were raised (ie these people shouldn't allow their kids around the weanlings and yearlings, because they're so easily intimdated) - they're all purebred arabians. Most of them are mean, and are very hot-headed. To me, they're the most beautiful creatures on the earth. Their temperments really are no different than my ASB showhorses. Well, except for Wally (the stud) but that's definitely understandable.

Lameness is a problem that i've seen via Arabians when they have somesort of impurity in their lineage, however even the purest arabian still does not have the power to launch up over a jump like Sporthorses do. Running straight & fast doesn't put as much strain on haunches as launching into the air over 6' jumps.
Agreed :D
I think it'll be nice to add a refined head to warmbloods. They're gorgeous already, but this will be nice. Yet I wouldn't buy a straight arab x warmblood cross, it'd have to be a grandchild of the arab or something, because you're right -- the arabs don't have the power of a sporthorse.
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